picture: Nuon Chea making a speech during the Khmer Rouge regime era.
This is the seven of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.
Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
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Borin: When the Democratic Kampuchea came to power, was your mother still alive?
Chea: Yes, she was still alive. I went to see her twice and all my relatives who were forcibly evacuated from their homes were very angry with me. But for our victory we must do it.
Borin: Why did they get angry with you?
Chea: They got angry because some of their husbands were killed, like one of my brothers-in-law who was a colonel in charge of fuel supply and who used to study in America. He was been taken away and executed. They didn’t know which groups did it. A lot of my relatives, some were teachers, some served in the army and some were ordinary citizens, were executed. In total there were approximately 40 of my relatives who were killed during the Democratic Kampuchea regime. So it didn’t mean that I did not suffer. I have suffered greatly for my nation and my personal family had suffered greatly as well. They have conned them by asking them if they have anyone in the family serving the previous government and so on. Because of their naivety they revealed the truth and they were arrested and executed. See? The situation was like a chessboard. It was very complicated and we didn’t know who was who.
Borin: When did you know that they have killed your relatives?
Chea: I only knew when I re-integrated with the government (in 1998). We knew who the killers were, like Heang Pheak, from Koh Krolor and Slor Kram. He had migrated to America and had converted to Christianity. The same as Kaing Guek Eav (Duch). He had converted to Christianity to escape punishment. The situation was very chaotic and we don’t know was who. One day they were very good to us and one day they become our enemy. Also at that time we were living separately as well. What I just told you is a tip of the iceberg. I haven’t told you everything yet.
Borin: Now that you mentioned about Kaing Guek Eav. I would like to ask: when did you know him?
Chea: I never knew him before. I only knew him after we have liberated the country (in 1975). Kaing Guek Eav had a very complex history. We didn’t know where he came from. Ta Mok had once told me that “Brother, Kaing Guek Eav is a bad person. You must find a means (to kill him?)”. But I was not Kaing Guek Eav’s immediate superior. It was Son Sen who was his immediate superior. So I cannot do anything to him. I just told Saloth Sar that “ Ta (Mok) told me that Kaing Guek Eav is not a good person. So you must do something”. I can only tell him but I did not push him because I wanted to avoid conflicts. People at that time belonged to different factions and have their powerful backers. So in solving any issues we must make compromises, especially we must re-educate them and allow them an opportunity to reform themselves first. Because we were not a court. Our Party was not a court so we cannot judge who is the winner and who is the loser. We just allow them to reform themselves.
It would be very bad if we sack people for any little mistakes because our society at that time was a very difficult society. Like in a family. Sometimes the husband is good but the wife is not good. Sometimes the wife is ok but because her parents control her from behind the scene conflicts can occur. Take me for example. My mother wanted me to marry a girl from a rich family but I told her I cannot find such a girl. Frankly, if I married a girl from a rich family I would not be in the situation that I have been in. Like Saloth Sar for example. He told me that a bus company owner from Kampong Cham wanted him to marry his daughter and has asked him to work in his business. So at that time people were looking for educated sons-in-law, especially those who have studied abroad. That time was an era when people were looking for people with education to be their sons-in-law. So if were weak we can be hypnotised by them because of materialistic temptations.
So this issue is a moral issue which caused mental pains and required an endurance. As for the physical pains I can endure them as long as I am able to get married legally and can enrol my children at school. If I did not register to obtain a marriage certificate I cannot apply for a birth certificate for my children and therefore they cannot enrol at any schools because I was a fugitive. See? My life was so hard but I must endure. My family has never venture out anywhere. We stay home all the time. I took my children to the cinema once in a very long while. We never went to any festivities, never went to anyone’s weeding parties or even attending anyone’s funeral. We were very isolated from the society but our minds and hearts were very attached to the society. Regarding this issue I will tell you in details when we have an opportunity and you can ask me whatever you want. My biography is being compiled in English but has not been published yet. Even though I spoke from my heart, I don’t think that it will be as good because it is not from original words but a translation from Khmer to English.
Borin: You said that someone told you that Kaing Guek Eav was not a good person. What made him not a good person?
Chea: He tortured and killed too many people. Any people would have said anything when tortured. That’s the fact.
Borin: So when someone told you that Kaing Guek Eav was not a good person, was that because of what he did?
Chea: Yes, because he was a very cruel person. It was Ta Mok who told me. He didn’t tell me in details about Kaing Guek Eav. He just said that Kaing Guek Eav was a bad person. He didn’t dare say much and I didn’t dare to tell Son Sen about Kaing Guek Eav. I just passed a message through Saloth Sar to tell Son Sen because he was not under my line of supervision. He was under someone else’s line of supervision.
Borin: Did you know Ta Mok for a long time?
Chea: I’ve known him for a long, long time, since the re-formation of our party. He was one of the party’s most active members. He is a good person with a foul mouth. But deep down he is a good-hearted person.
Borin: What does this mean in relation to his works?
Chea: He was a very dedicated person who had sacrificed everything and a quick-witted person. He will do anything hard and difficult that others refused to do. And a lot of peasants and farmers really loved him because his root was from a farming family as well. He had also been ordained as a Buddhist monk at Wat Keo Ponleu or Svay Po Pei temples, I’m not sure which one. It was normal because he joined us later than others and also because he was old as well so his views are always changing.
Borin: When you said that he is a foul-mouthed person, what do you mean by a foul-mouthed person?
Chea: He will throw a tirade at anyone without hesitation. If he see someone does the wrong thing he will rant at them right away. In my opinion, as a leader, if we see someone does the wrong thing, we analyse it and wait to raise the issue in the meeting. It’s not good to attack someone straight away for their mistakes. This is what I see in him. He does not hold his mouth. This is what I think the reason is: he did not have a good education but he was very experienced. So people who had long years of experiences will always see mistakes in other people’s works. So education and experiences must go hands in hands. But for him, who had done and experienced a lot of things, will never be satisfied with anyone’s works. That’s why he has a habits of telling people off right away if they have done something wrong. That’s his nature.//(To be continued in part 8, the final part). To read part eight click here.
To listen to part six please click here.http://www.rfa.org/service/audio_popup.html?file=http://www.rfa.org/khmer/audio/2007/10/11/hbs0927-nc6.mp3
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