Two top pictures is Khieu Samphan in the 1970s. Thw tow bottom pictures is Khieu Samphan's visit to China as Head of state in April 1976 and his visit to the Cambodian people in April 1976.
The following is part four of a six-part interview between Khieu Samphan, the nominal Khmer Rouge head of state, and Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia. This interview was conducted in January, 2004 and was re-broadcast in November, 2007.
Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
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Borin: On this point, other than being one of the intellectuals, you were also one of the politicians who strongly supported Prince Sihanouk's policy of neutrality. When foreign troops came to station on our soil, what do you think about the government allowing them to station in our border areas or even stationing themselves in some parts of Cambodia's provinces?
Samphan: This is my view: right or wrong we can discuss about it further in order to use it to serve as a lesson for our history. And there are many issues which have to be debated and discussed in order for us to learn about our history.
Now, for this issue, this is how I understand it: At that time it was not only me who had this sort of view. This was how most of us understand about this issue at that time and that was we have to be practical. At that time we did not have enough forces to drive the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese out because the North Vietnamese forces have defeated the French forces in the Battle of Bien Dien Phu. On the other hand, our troops had never fought any war. We had no experience in fighting. So if we use military means to solve our problems on this issue, I was of the view that it was not the right way to solve that problem. If we wanted to solve the problem that way we must join with the American forces. But we could not even do that because the American forces were busy fighting their war too. So they will not be happy to help us. In my view, Prince Sihanouk's policy at that time was to contain and confine the war to the border areas and not to allow it to spill over deep inside Cambodia. But he could not do that because both sides had strong and powerful military forces. So when they fought each other they cannot avoid spilling the war into Cambodia. But we must contain the spills at the border areas and not to allow the fightings to be spilled deep inside our country. That's what happened. But if we attacked them they will surely fight back because they have nowhere to go to. And we could not fight them because we did not have enough troops.
Borin: Cambodia at that time knew that it had no forces to fight against the Viet Cong who stationed it's forces on our soil illegally. But according to the behaviour of our government at that time it seemed to be against America and therefore had turned a blind eye to the other forces using our soil to fight against America. This was the issue.
Samphan: Yes, if we look at the situation through this angle we can see the situation this way. But in my own personal view Vietnam should not create any problems with Cambodia anymore after that because Cambodia, during Prince Sihanouk's rule, helped Vietnam to a certain extent. And Cambodia, after the 1970's coup d'etat, that is to say during the Khmer Rouge regime, had helped Vietnam to a certain extent as well. This is the fact. So Vietnam should not cause any trouble for Cambodia. Like in 1967, 1968 Vietnam stopped respecting our borders which they had in the past agreed to respect. I hope to have an opportunity to discuss this issue with you later.
Borin: I would like to bring you back to your first 'open letter'. On point three, you said that you never knew any leaders of the Communist Party of Cambodia. You never liked or have never joined that party before. Why then when you got into trouble (in 1967) you seemed to be so sure that they will ensure your safety and security. How it turned out to be like that?
Samphan: You are right. But when I was threatened with arrests, as I told you before, the situation at that time was not the same as before that. The threats against me can't be taken for granted. My security in Phnom Penh cannot be assured anymore, so I must flee. That's the first point. But on the other hand, I saw that those who fled to the jungle before me, which I was not sure when, have followed my situation very closely. So they sent me and Hou Youn a letter because both of us were ordered to be arrested by military court because both of us were accused of being leftists. But Hou Youn and me were the main targets of the arrests. So at that time they sent a messenger, who was a respectable and credible old man, whom I knew when he was a member of the association of a senior citizens' group of the Sisowath College. And that association used to meet very often for dinner etc. in order to discuss about various issues. So we have touched on the issues concerning the current state of affairs of Cambodia at that time. And after that both Hou Youn and I knew that old man very well.
Borin: Mr. President, can you tell our listeners about the identity of the old man who handed the letter to you in that meeting?
Samphan: Yes. That old man was a doctor who had joined the senior citizens' association.
Borin: What was his name?
Samphan: Sorry, I can't remember his name because it was a long time ago.
Borin: I hope you can recall his name in our next interview.
Samphan: Yes, sure. The contents of the letter mentioned about the issues of the current political situation in Cambodia at that time. So I assumed that because the writer had deep understanding of the political situation at that time, I concluded that he must be a political activist. So he must be a person chosen by the people from the jungle base to be the messenger.
Borin: Did that letter have any signature on it?
Samphan: There was no signature because the situation at that time was dangerous so they have to be cautious. They could be arrested for doing that.
Borin: Can you assume who the letter writer was and who were the leaders of the movement at that time?
Samphan: At that time no one knew for sure. We just knew for a long time that there were people fleeing to the jungle. We only knew very sketchy about that. Those people have organised the movement there in their jungle base. So I have discussed with Hou Youn that we have no where to escape to other than taking a risk and flee to join those people in the jungle. At that point we realised that this old man must be genuine in helping us to escape if we were to survive. But to what degree he can help us we were not yet sure. So that's why we decided to flee to the jungle.
After we got that letter and because we had not escaped, the old man came to see us and asked why we hadn't escaped. Was it because we were too scared to flee?
It took us many days before we decided to go to the jungle. After we decided to go the old man came to fetch us in his car and drove us to Route Three. At dusk we reached a place just before Ang To Sorm. At that time there was a group of people waiting for us there. We got off the car and they gave each of us a bike. We rode the bike off the road and onto the dike one after the other in the middle of the rice fields by following the light of the stars. When we reached our destination, we noticed that delicate security arrangement was organised to facilitate our escape. They passed a message by whispering from one person to one person that we were one of them. That we were not a threat to them. So they let us go through. In fact we rode a bicycle for less than half an hour when we reached our jungle base. When we reached that village they asked us to go up a house. When I got up to the house the first person I saw was Ta Mok who sat quietly there.
Borin: Mr. President, I would like to clarify this point a little bit. Who was the first person you met?
Samphan: Ta Mok.
Borin: You mean our Ta Mok, the one who is presently being detained?
Samphan: Yes, yes, that's right. At that time he was in Kampong Speu. He was in charge there. In fact I never knew him before. And at that time I didn't even know who he was. They just introduced him to me as Ta Mok. At that time he was dressed in a black, short-sleeved shirt and a short. And the shirt has no button because I can see that his chest was full of hair.
Borin: What was the name of the village where you met Ta Mok for the first time?
Samphan: The name of the village was Cheung Tong village, Cheung Tong commune, Samrong Tong district and Kampong Speu province. At that time we sat cross-legged around a kerose lamp. In our first meeting it was very short. He just asked us where were we going and which way we came through etc. It was just a normal conversation. A short time later he invited the owner of the house to join us...(To be continued in parts 5, 6...). To read part five click here.
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