Sa Sovan (R) and Jacques Verges (L) defending Khieu Samphan at the Khmer Rouge Tribunal.INTERVIEW
Asia Times Online
By Stephen Kurczy
PHNOM PENH- Advocate Jacques Verges was a no-show last week at Phnom Penh's Khmer Rouge tribunal, where he represents the 77-year-old Khieu Samphan, the former head of state of the radical Maoist regime blamed for the deaths of some 1.7 million Cambodians during the late 1970s. Verges was apparently stuck in Paris tending to a close friend and colleague who had fallen down a staircase. That's according to Khieu Samphan's Cambodian co-attorney, Sa Sovan, who was left to appear alone in the defense section and asked for the court to delay the pre-trial hearing. Asia Times Online contributor Stephen Kurczy caught up with Sa Sovan at his Phnom Penh law office afterwards to ask what it is like to work alongside the famed French advocate; about allegations of corruption which have dogged the United Nations (UN)-backed tribunal, and why he decided to represent Khieu Samphan, even though 20 of his own family members died under the Khmer Rouge regime. Excerpts follow:
Asia Times Online: Jacques Verges just wrapped up a four-month production of his one-man play at the Madeleine Theater in Paris. Amid his hectic schedule, and now the news that his close friend is in the hospital, how often are you two able to discuss your defense strategy for Khieu Samphan?
Sa Sovan: All the time, almost every day. Otherwise we cannot defend our client.
Asia Times Online: Have you seen Verges' performance in Paris?
SS: Yes. He takes the cases of Creon, the [former] king of Greece, Joan of Arc and the 1962 case of Djamila Bouhired, and he compares the cases. It was very good. We all stood up and clapped for 20 minutes.
ATol: At the tribunal, it has at times appeared as if Verges and you were putting on a performance. Last year I recall you almost got into a fight with one of the civil party victims during a press conference.
SS: They hate me because I defend Khieu Samphan. They pulled on my hands and asked me why I defend Khieu Samphan. But I rejected their questions. I said, "Don't ask me, ask your lawyer." I later complained to the UN to not let these people in the court. I said, "If you do, I will bring 1,000 supporters of Khieu Samphan to the court."
ATol: Do you believe Khieu Samphan is innocent?
SS: My friend lost his wife and four children to the Khmer Rouge. Even he says that Khieu Samphan is not a killer. I could bring 1,000 supporters [of Khieu Samphan to the court]. … If he did wrong, we need to find the evidence. But if there is no evidence, we have to acquit him. My father also died in the regime. So we have to find out the mistakes that were done. If we cannot find the mistakes, we have to acquit Khieu Samphan.
ATol: Do you think the trial, with its many problems, will ever get to a point where he is either convicted or acquitted?
SS: Don't ask me that question. I can't answer it.
ATol: How did you become Khieu Samphan's lawyer?
SS: It was very accidental. My friend, Say Bory, got sick. He was the former attorney for Khieu Samphan … I was hesitant to be Khieu Samphan's attorney because both of my children were born in France and they felt like those people born in France, in foreign countries, were hated by the Khmer Rouge regime.
So they told me that I should not join. You have enough money from your teaching and your retirement, they said, you can do anything else. They see things differently because they are not attorneys. I decided to become Khieu Samphan's attorney even though my children and my wife, also my friends, opposed it.
ATol: Would you have agreed to defend any of the other former Khmer Rouge cadres now held in detention: former Toul Sleng prison chief Kaing Guek Eav, alias Duch; former Brother Number 2 and chief ideologue Nuon Chea; former foreign minister Ieng Sary; or his wife, former social affairs minister Ieng Thirith?
SS: No, only Khieu Samphan. The other four came to me, but I said I was busy.
ATol: Was your decision influenced by growing up in Kandal province, where Khieu Samphan served as your parliamentary representative?
SS: As an attorney, we cannot make a decision based on those things. It does not mean that I love [Khieu Samphan] and hate the others. I have my own difficulties with the others. I think it is difficult to defend them … I know that Khieu Samphan is a man of integrity. He was the parliamentary representative in my area and we knew that Khieu Samphan was not a strong communist. I know he was honest and criticized all the governors for corruption.
ATol: Cambodian staffers at the tribunal claim they were forced to pay kickbacks for their jobs. Do you believe corruption exists within the court?
SS: I don't know much about the allegations, because it regards those who receive money from the Cambodian side of the court. I receive my money from the United Nations. … Corruption is not only at the ECCC [Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia], it is throughout Cambodia.
If you want me to find corruption, I can find it. At the municipal courts, judges receive $450 to $500 a month, but they drive a Lexus SUV or Land Cruiser. The clerk in the court only receives $60 a month, but he drives a car to work.
ATol: Is it as easy to find corruption within the ECCC?
SS: I cannot say. Maybe I have heard information, but I have no evidence. Seventy percent of the staff are my former students. But I have no evidence, so I cannot say anything.
ATol: Some staff said they were instructed to pay 70% of their paychecks in kickbacks.
SS: It's too much. If your salary is $5,000 a month, then you're giving $3,500 already. If you give $500, maybe it's believable.
ATol: Regardless of the extent of the allegations, should the Cambodian government investigate?
SS: I cannot answer this. Ask the government. It is related to politics, to the dispute between [national co-prosecutor] Chea Leang and [international co-prosecutor] Robert Petit. One wants to investigate more suspects and the other does not want to investigate. I am worried that the court is under the influence of politics too much.
ATol: What is a bigger issue at the court, the allegations of corruption or the court's failure to translate all documents into French, as Verges has complained about for the past year?
SS: Translation is not an issue. There are not many charges against Khieu Samphan - if you put the translation as the most important issue, it means we are afraid.
ATol: But Verges has repeatedly accused the court of failing to translate all evidence into French, thereby denying him of the ability to defend his client.
SS: He has to say this - it is a strategy for the defense. He has to do that. But for me, if I change my position, I change my position because my client has asked me to. I put the interest of my client first.
ATol: Are you saying the translation issue is a mere stalling tactic?
SS: No. It's a waste of time that the court hasn't resolved it already. I want to do things faster so we can know whether the court will acquit him or not. The reason we have hearings is to release Khieu Samphan.
ATol: Like Khieu Samphan and many of the founding members of the Khmer Rouge, you were educated in Paris. How did this come about?
SS: In 1969 I had a feeling that our country might have a war soon, so I was looking for scholarships to study in France. I liked private law, because my father was a businessman and lawyer. At that time, Cambodian students were not interested in scholarships for private law. Most students only wanted an education in public law so they could become a director or governor somewhere in the country. If I tried to get a scholarship in public law, I wouldn't have been able to because it was so competitive.
ATol: You are one of the few living Cambodians who was educated pre-1975. How did you escape the regime's purge of intellectuals? Did you know you should not return to Cambodia after the Khmer Rouge sacked Lon Nol's government on April 17, 1975?
SS: I wanted to come back. I wanted to return because I am a Khmer national, but I didn't want to be a commune chief for the Khmer Rouge. I just wanted to come back as a commoner and teach at the university of law. But the Khmer Rouge didn't see me that way.
They said I was just an opportunist who wanted to join them when they won power … The Khmer Rouge in Paris asked me to write an essay naming the seven national traitors: [former Cambodian prime minister] Lon Nol, etc. But I could only write down six names. I forgot the name Son Ngoc Thanh. He was the Cambodian prime minister when the Japanese armies came to Cambodia. But because I forgot his name, the Khmer Rouge would not let me come back.
Stephen Kurczy is an Asia Times Online contributor based in Cambodia. He may be reached at kurczy@gmail.com.
(Copyright 2009 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
Asia Times Online
By Stephen Kurczy
PHNOM PENH- Advocate Jacques Verges was a no-show last week at Phnom Penh's Khmer Rouge tribunal, where he represents the 77-year-old Khieu Samphan, the former head of state of the radical Maoist regime blamed for the deaths of some 1.7 million Cambodians during the late 1970s. Verges was apparently stuck in Paris tending to a close friend and colleague who had fallen down a staircase. That's according to Khieu Samphan's Cambodian co-attorney, Sa Sovan, who was left to appear alone in the defense section and asked for the court to delay the pre-trial hearing. Asia Times Online contributor Stephen Kurczy caught up with Sa Sovan at his Phnom Penh law office afterwards to ask what it is like to work alongside the famed French advocate; about allegations of corruption which have dogged the United Nations (UN)-backed tribunal, and why he decided to represent Khieu Samphan, even though 20 of his own family members died under the Khmer Rouge regime. Excerpts follow:
Asia Times Online: Jacques Verges just wrapped up a four-month production of his one-man play at the Madeleine Theater in Paris. Amid his hectic schedule, and now the news that his close friend is in the hospital, how often are you two able to discuss your defense strategy for Khieu Samphan?
Sa Sovan: All the time, almost every day. Otherwise we cannot defend our client.
Asia Times Online: Have you seen Verges' performance in Paris?
SS: Yes. He takes the cases of Creon, the [former] king of Greece, Joan of Arc and the 1962 case of Djamila Bouhired, and he compares the cases. It was very good. We all stood up and clapped for 20 minutes.
ATol: At the tribunal, it has at times appeared as if Verges and you were putting on a performance. Last year I recall you almost got into a fight with one of the civil party victims during a press conference.
SS: They hate me because I defend Khieu Samphan. They pulled on my hands and asked me why I defend Khieu Samphan. But I rejected their questions. I said, "Don't ask me, ask your lawyer." I later complained to the UN to not let these people in the court. I said, "If you do, I will bring 1,000 supporters of Khieu Samphan to the court."
ATol: Do you believe Khieu Samphan is innocent?
SS: My friend lost his wife and four children to the Khmer Rouge. Even he says that Khieu Samphan is not a killer. I could bring 1,000 supporters [of Khieu Samphan to the court]. … If he did wrong, we need to find the evidence. But if there is no evidence, we have to acquit him. My father also died in the regime. So we have to find out the mistakes that were done. If we cannot find the mistakes, we have to acquit Khieu Samphan.
ATol: Do you think the trial, with its many problems, will ever get to a point where he is either convicted or acquitted?
SS: Don't ask me that question. I can't answer it.
ATol: How did you become Khieu Samphan's lawyer?
SS: It was very accidental. My friend, Say Bory, got sick. He was the former attorney for Khieu Samphan … I was hesitant to be Khieu Samphan's attorney because both of my children were born in France and they felt like those people born in France, in foreign countries, were hated by the Khmer Rouge regime.
So they told me that I should not join. You have enough money from your teaching and your retirement, they said, you can do anything else. They see things differently because they are not attorneys. I decided to become Khieu Samphan's attorney even though my children and my wife, also my friends, opposed it.
ATol: Would you have agreed to defend any of the other former Khmer Rouge cadres now held in detention: former Toul Sleng prison chief Kaing Guek Eav, alias Duch; former Brother Number 2 and chief ideologue Nuon Chea; former foreign minister Ieng Sary; or his wife, former social affairs minister Ieng Thirith?
SS: No, only Khieu Samphan. The other four came to me, but I said I was busy.
ATol: Was your decision influenced by growing up in Kandal province, where Khieu Samphan served as your parliamentary representative?
SS: As an attorney, we cannot make a decision based on those things. It does not mean that I love [Khieu Samphan] and hate the others. I have my own difficulties with the others. I think it is difficult to defend them … I know that Khieu Samphan is a man of integrity. He was the parliamentary representative in my area and we knew that Khieu Samphan was not a strong communist. I know he was honest and criticized all the governors for corruption.
ATol: Cambodian staffers at the tribunal claim they were forced to pay kickbacks for their jobs. Do you believe corruption exists within the court?
SS: I don't know much about the allegations, because it regards those who receive money from the Cambodian side of the court. I receive my money from the United Nations. … Corruption is not only at the ECCC [Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia], it is throughout Cambodia.
If you want me to find corruption, I can find it. At the municipal courts, judges receive $450 to $500 a month, but they drive a Lexus SUV or Land Cruiser. The clerk in the court only receives $60 a month, but he drives a car to work.
ATol: Is it as easy to find corruption within the ECCC?
SS: I cannot say. Maybe I have heard information, but I have no evidence. Seventy percent of the staff are my former students. But I have no evidence, so I cannot say anything.
ATol: Some staff said they were instructed to pay 70% of their paychecks in kickbacks.
SS: It's too much. If your salary is $5,000 a month, then you're giving $3,500 already. If you give $500, maybe it's believable.
ATol: Regardless of the extent of the allegations, should the Cambodian government investigate?
SS: I cannot answer this. Ask the government. It is related to politics, to the dispute between [national co-prosecutor] Chea Leang and [international co-prosecutor] Robert Petit. One wants to investigate more suspects and the other does not want to investigate. I am worried that the court is under the influence of politics too much.
ATol: What is a bigger issue at the court, the allegations of corruption or the court's failure to translate all documents into French, as Verges has complained about for the past year?
SS: Translation is not an issue. There are not many charges against Khieu Samphan - if you put the translation as the most important issue, it means we are afraid.
ATol: But Verges has repeatedly accused the court of failing to translate all evidence into French, thereby denying him of the ability to defend his client.
SS: He has to say this - it is a strategy for the defense. He has to do that. But for me, if I change my position, I change my position because my client has asked me to. I put the interest of my client first.
ATol: Are you saying the translation issue is a mere stalling tactic?
SS: No. It's a waste of time that the court hasn't resolved it already. I want to do things faster so we can know whether the court will acquit him or not. The reason we have hearings is to release Khieu Samphan.
ATol: Like Khieu Samphan and many of the founding members of the Khmer Rouge, you were educated in Paris. How did this come about?
SS: In 1969 I had a feeling that our country might have a war soon, so I was looking for scholarships to study in France. I liked private law, because my father was a businessman and lawyer. At that time, Cambodian students were not interested in scholarships for private law. Most students only wanted an education in public law so they could become a director or governor somewhere in the country. If I tried to get a scholarship in public law, I wouldn't have been able to because it was so competitive.
ATol: You are one of the few living Cambodians who was educated pre-1975. How did you escape the regime's purge of intellectuals? Did you know you should not return to Cambodia after the Khmer Rouge sacked Lon Nol's government on April 17, 1975?
SS: I wanted to come back. I wanted to return because I am a Khmer national, but I didn't want to be a commune chief for the Khmer Rouge. I just wanted to come back as a commoner and teach at the university of law. But the Khmer Rouge didn't see me that way.
They said I was just an opportunist who wanted to join them when they won power … The Khmer Rouge in Paris asked me to write an essay naming the seven national traitors: [former Cambodian prime minister] Lon Nol, etc. But I could only write down six names. I forgot the name Son Ngoc Thanh. He was the Cambodian prime minister when the Japanese armies came to Cambodia. But because I forgot his name, the Khmer Rouge would not let me come back.
Stephen Kurczy is an Asia Times Online contributor based in Cambodia. He may be reached at kurczy@gmail.com.
(Copyright 2009 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
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