This is the fourth of an eight-part interview with Nuon Chea, Brother Number Two of the Khmer Rouge regime, which was conducted and recorded by Mr. Sam Borin of Radio Free Asia about one year ago but was re-broadcast again in September 2007.
Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
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Borin: When the Khmer Rouge carried out the reforms, did many people agreed with the reforms?
Chea: I believe that there were some. But those people most of them were those who thought that “we have gone too far with the religious reforms”. See? That’s what they thought. I once met a foreign aristocrat, but I won’t say what his nationality is. He told me that a monk cannot lead the revolution (communism). I told him I disagree with his view. Any monks who adhere to Buddhism can lead a revolution better. It is true that the revolution (communism) and Buddhism has a slight difference from each other. They are not much different from each other regarding the principle of “violence” and the “ non-violence”. Buddhism favours spiritual reform and revolution/communism favours social reform.
They are not different from each other if we know how to combine the two. We must overcome our greed, bad intentions and angers first before we can overcome over other people. No any other victory is better than the victory over ourselves. If we still have bad intentions and angers and get drunk everyday, how can we lead? We have two, three, four or even five wives, hordes lots of money, cars and materialistic things etc. these are the things that we have to overcome ourselves with.
Borin: There were some people in some sections of the society, including myself, who believed that those Khmer Rouge leaders who used to be a Buddhist monks were the ones who killed more people than those who had never become a monk. What do think about this observation?
Chea: No, it is not true. Those people just say like that without any basis. I believe that we must balance. But sometimes we received pressures or influences from foreigners who do not believe in Buddhism because it is a complex religion. All religions, including Buddhism and Christianity, taught people to do good things. It is the people who commit bad things, not religions. We must understand about this point clearly.
Borin: But people have noticed that those who had spent life in the monastery are those who had become cruel killers than those who had never become a monk. Have you noticed like that?
Chea: No, it is not like that. I saw those people were like any other people but they always have compassion in them. Those who killed were mostly former thieves or ex-soldiers who were ruthless people. Before we have the “Red Soldiers” or the “Black Soldiers” who have become jungle robbers and killed each other mercilessly. When the Issarak Movements were formed they joined those movements and when the revolutionary movements were formed they came to joined us. Those people were so anarchic.
Borin: Were those people used to be monks?Chea: Some used to be monks. Some have never become monks and some became Buddhist monks only for a short period of time.
Borin: One point that I would like to raise is that Saloth Sar used to be a monk. And the other point is that he used to be an engineer in technical field. Is that so?
Chea: He was an electrical engineer.
Borin: He was an electrical engineer. People consider that those who studied this field were those who were not smart students, that’s my first point. The second point is people used to say that Saloth Sar was a bombastic person. Why did the People’s Revolutionary Party of Cambodia chose him to be the most important leader of the Democratic Kampuchea regime?
Chea: He used to tell me that he was a shy and a timid person who is scared to engage in arguments and fighting. He said that they always sent him to solve problems with difficult persons who had come to join our Party. He said that he was scared to deal with those people. He has a soft heart, not a “playboy” as portrayed by some people. But he was a disciplined person who become strict with himself or even with his family. That’s normal.
But he had never been a drunkard, a gambler or anything like that. He was a good person who has a very clean image. That’s why he had tried to build a good life for himself. He had told me that he decided to become a monk when his mother became sick. His mother asked him to clean her bottom when she became sick. So he thought to himself that may be his mother wanted him to pay back the gratitude and he did it willingly. When he came back he told me about this with tears rolling down his cheeks. So he was a very grateful person.
But he liked to say like this:” I hate feudalism more than colonialism because I do not like to bow (to the king)”. and he used to tell me that he was always scared of the Arabic guards. In the old days most guards such as the guards of the cinema, theatres and café etc., were Arabic people. As you can see Saloth Sar was a timid person who was concerned about other people’s feelings. So those people whom he cannot reform and educate he will let other people try to educate them instead. He was not a person who was always wanted to win or have his ways all the time but a person who has his reasons, who speaks with reasons.
Borin: So these are the reasons why many members of the Party love him?
Chea: Yes. He was a person who speaks with reasons and he was a polite person too.
Borin: Polite in what sense?
Chea:Polite in the sense that he was a person who compromised all the time, not a person who wanted his ways all the time.
Borin:I know that you need to go to the temple right now so thank you. I wanted to wish you good health and best wishes.
Chea: I have learnt a lot from you through your questions. If we have some one who ask us questions all the time it makes us think. But if no one to ask us anything we don’t think about anything. And when someone questioned us we will always have the reasons. And when we have time I would like to talk about the true nature of how the Communist Party of Cambodia was created. This is a core and key issue. I wish to tell you how was the Party led, how it had become strong and then weak. This is a very important issue. If you know about this point you know everything. You will see who was good and who was bad. I said this not because I wanted to bad-mouth my party but because I wanted to reveal it to serve as a lesson for the next generations to learn.
You know, even if after I died things cannot be changed. You know, time is short and I am not very healthy as well so I have to try to reveal as much as I can before I died. One more thing I wanted to tell you: I seemed to like you a lot. Some people who wanted to interview me but came with a bad intention so I refused to talk to them. I like people who are sincere. I don’t like deceitful people.
You can ask anything you wanted to ask. Some people pretended that they come from Radio Free Asia and just wanted to visit me. When I knew their real intentions I refused to grant them the interview. They have to tell me the truth so I can tell them exactly what they wanted to know. If we talk about the Buddhist teachings of Dharma we are talking about the truth. There should be no diplomatic talk but rather they can quiz me in a polite manner. Some journalists interviewed me like they are interrogating me but I ignored their questions. Just ask in a sincere manner, do not need to interrogate me and I will answer you in a truthful way. Take what you think is right and leave what you think is wrong for later days.
I tell you the truth. I don’t consider the court as an adjudicator. I consider it as a battleground between the (Cambodian) nationalist resistance fighters and the international community. So the upcoming Khmer Rouge Tribunal is a battleground between the Cambodian nationalists and the international community.
That’s why my morale now is very high. If there is no Khmer Rouge Tribunal the truth will never be revealed and people will vilify, defame and prejudge that the Khmer Rouge are cruel people who had committed genocide. So to tell you the truth I recognise this Tribunal but as a battleground, not only for myself but for all those patriots who had sacrificed their lives. So I wish you all the best.//(To be continued in parts 5, 6, 7 and 8..). To read part five click here.
To listen to part three please click:http://www.rfa.org/service/audio_popup.html?file=http://www.rfa.org/khmer/audio/2007/10/04/hbs0925-nc3.mp3
Translated from Khmer by Khmerization
-----------------------------------------
Borin: When the Khmer Rouge carried out the reforms, did many people agreed with the reforms?
Chea: I believe that there were some. But those people most of them were those who thought that “we have gone too far with the religious reforms”. See? That’s what they thought. I once met a foreign aristocrat, but I won’t say what his nationality is. He told me that a monk cannot lead the revolution (communism). I told him I disagree with his view. Any monks who adhere to Buddhism can lead a revolution better. It is true that the revolution (communism) and Buddhism has a slight difference from each other. They are not much different from each other regarding the principle of “violence” and the “ non-violence”. Buddhism favours spiritual reform and revolution/communism favours social reform.
They are not different from each other if we know how to combine the two. We must overcome our greed, bad intentions and angers first before we can overcome over other people. No any other victory is better than the victory over ourselves. If we still have bad intentions and angers and get drunk everyday, how can we lead? We have two, three, four or even five wives, hordes lots of money, cars and materialistic things etc. these are the things that we have to overcome ourselves with.
Borin: There were some people in some sections of the society, including myself, who believed that those Khmer Rouge leaders who used to be a Buddhist monks were the ones who killed more people than those who had never become a monk. What do think about this observation?
Chea: No, it is not true. Those people just say like that without any basis. I believe that we must balance. But sometimes we received pressures or influences from foreigners who do not believe in Buddhism because it is a complex religion. All religions, including Buddhism and Christianity, taught people to do good things. It is the people who commit bad things, not religions. We must understand about this point clearly.
Borin: But people have noticed that those who had spent life in the monastery are those who had become cruel killers than those who had never become a monk. Have you noticed like that?
Chea: No, it is not like that. I saw those people were like any other people but they always have compassion in them. Those who killed were mostly former thieves or ex-soldiers who were ruthless people. Before we have the “Red Soldiers” or the “Black Soldiers” who have become jungle robbers and killed each other mercilessly. When the Issarak Movements were formed they joined those movements and when the revolutionary movements were formed they came to joined us. Those people were so anarchic.
Borin: Were those people used to be monks?Chea: Some used to be monks. Some have never become monks and some became Buddhist monks only for a short period of time.
Borin: One point that I would like to raise is that Saloth Sar used to be a monk. And the other point is that he used to be an engineer in technical field. Is that so?
Chea: He was an electrical engineer.
Borin: He was an electrical engineer. People consider that those who studied this field were those who were not smart students, that’s my first point. The second point is people used to say that Saloth Sar was a bombastic person. Why did the People’s Revolutionary Party of Cambodia chose him to be the most important leader of the Democratic Kampuchea regime?
Chea: He used to tell me that he was a shy and a timid person who is scared to engage in arguments and fighting. He said that they always sent him to solve problems with difficult persons who had come to join our Party. He said that he was scared to deal with those people. He has a soft heart, not a “playboy” as portrayed by some people. But he was a disciplined person who become strict with himself or even with his family. That’s normal.
But he had never been a drunkard, a gambler or anything like that. He was a good person who has a very clean image. That’s why he had tried to build a good life for himself. He had told me that he decided to become a monk when his mother became sick. His mother asked him to clean her bottom when she became sick. So he thought to himself that may be his mother wanted him to pay back the gratitude and he did it willingly. When he came back he told me about this with tears rolling down his cheeks. So he was a very grateful person.
But he liked to say like this:” I hate feudalism more than colonialism because I do not like to bow (to the king)”. and he used to tell me that he was always scared of the Arabic guards. In the old days most guards such as the guards of the cinema, theatres and café etc., were Arabic people. As you can see Saloth Sar was a timid person who was concerned about other people’s feelings. So those people whom he cannot reform and educate he will let other people try to educate them instead. He was not a person who was always wanted to win or have his ways all the time but a person who has his reasons, who speaks with reasons.
Borin: So these are the reasons why many members of the Party love him?
Chea: Yes. He was a person who speaks with reasons and he was a polite person too.
Borin: Polite in what sense?
Chea:Polite in the sense that he was a person who compromised all the time, not a person who wanted his ways all the time.
Borin:I know that you need to go to the temple right now so thank you. I wanted to wish you good health and best wishes.
Chea: I have learnt a lot from you through your questions. If we have some one who ask us questions all the time it makes us think. But if no one to ask us anything we don’t think about anything. And when someone questioned us we will always have the reasons. And when we have time I would like to talk about the true nature of how the Communist Party of Cambodia was created. This is a core and key issue. I wish to tell you how was the Party led, how it had become strong and then weak. This is a very important issue. If you know about this point you know everything. You will see who was good and who was bad. I said this not because I wanted to bad-mouth my party but because I wanted to reveal it to serve as a lesson for the next generations to learn.
You know, even if after I died things cannot be changed. You know, time is short and I am not very healthy as well so I have to try to reveal as much as I can before I died. One more thing I wanted to tell you: I seemed to like you a lot. Some people who wanted to interview me but came with a bad intention so I refused to talk to them. I like people who are sincere. I don’t like deceitful people.
You can ask anything you wanted to ask. Some people pretended that they come from Radio Free Asia and just wanted to visit me. When I knew their real intentions I refused to grant them the interview. They have to tell me the truth so I can tell them exactly what they wanted to know. If we talk about the Buddhist teachings of Dharma we are talking about the truth. There should be no diplomatic talk but rather they can quiz me in a polite manner. Some journalists interviewed me like they are interrogating me but I ignored their questions. Just ask in a sincere manner, do not need to interrogate me and I will answer you in a truthful way. Take what you think is right and leave what you think is wrong for later days.
I tell you the truth. I don’t consider the court as an adjudicator. I consider it as a battleground between the (Cambodian) nationalist resistance fighters and the international community. So the upcoming Khmer Rouge Tribunal is a battleground between the Cambodian nationalists and the international community.
That’s why my morale now is very high. If there is no Khmer Rouge Tribunal the truth will never be revealed and people will vilify, defame and prejudge that the Khmer Rouge are cruel people who had committed genocide. So to tell you the truth I recognise this Tribunal but as a battleground, not only for myself but for all those patriots who had sacrificed their lives. So I wish you all the best.//(To be continued in parts 5, 6, 7 and 8..). To read part five click here.
To listen to part three please click:http://www.rfa.org/service/audio_popup.html?file=http://www.rfa.org/khmer/audio/2007/10/04/hbs0925-nc3.mp3
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